When it comes to enterprise marketing, it is all about getting the right mix to ensure your marketing dollars are invested wisely. With Marketing for large brands you are constantly tweaking your marketing mix to maximize the return on your marketing portfolio. That also poses a certain set of challenges as you have to be constantly on the lookout for new marketing tactics that are on the intercept. My next guest in this podcast episode is someone who has been there and done that! He has worked with some of the leading brands in the country across the board from CPG companies to large financial brands.
In this BobCast episode, we are excited to have Howard Diamond, Chief Strategy Officer at Rise Interactive to share his insights on all things enterprise marketing:
Tune in to this Podcast and learn:
- What is the ideal marketing mix that large brands should employ
- How are MarTech platforms delivering results for large brands
- Specific challenges for large brands in the CPG space
- The increasing clout of marketplaces and how brands are leveraging marketplaces
- How marketing teams in large brands are structured – in-house, agency reliance or hybrid structure
- And many more marketing insights
Our Guest Speaker for this Episode:
Howard Diamond, Chief Strategy Officer
Transcript of this podcast – Marketing For Large Brands – Enterprise Marketing Challenges
Howard Diamond is the Chief Strategy Officer at Rise Interactive. In his current role, he is responsible for managing global partnerships to create innovative solutions for Rise’s clients. Diamond also helps leading brands develop digital marketing strategies that drive efficiency and scale.
Diamond brings to Rise more than 15 years of experience helping marketers achieve maximum results from their media and technology investments. Prior to Rise, he worked at CoolSavings.com (now Q Interactive), providing response-driven online marketing programs to more than 120 retailers nationwide including Disney, Kmart and J. Crew. Diamond also worked at Coe-Truman Technologies, leading the sales and marketing efforts for Catapult, a content management and publishing solution for retailers and distributors such as Ace Hardware and Calendars.com.
Diamond sits on the Board of Directors for the Center for Enriched Living, a non-profit organization focusing on the success of people with developmental disabilities.
He earned a bachelor’s degree in advertising from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
Bob Tripathi: All right folks welcome. This is Bob Tripathi. With Digital Sparx Marketing and with my podcast, Bobcast, the Digital Marketing Podcast. And you know as you guys know I like to talk to a lot of industry leaders people who have been there done that and many times in the trenches. And right now in the current state of digital marketing we do see that as a lot of different areas especially from a bigger enterprise marketing point of view. And the other thing we’re seeing which is on the other side of the equation is you have this great amazing agencies and I don’t like to use the word agencies I like to use it more as a marketing services company but you know who work with this large enterprises and they see some specific behavior and working with this large enterprise marketing teams. So I thought who better to invite than Howard Diamond. Howard is the Chief Strategy Officer at Rise Interactive Rise Interactive. It’s one of the largest agencies or marketing services company in the nation. And I believe you guys were quoted a few times as the best place to work in Chicago but up here myself and Howard I think we know each other from the past 9-10 years of back when I used to live in Chicago and work at Discover in other places. But Howard really excited to have you on this show. On today’s episode so welcome and if you don’t mind just introduce yourself to our audience.
Howard Diamond: Thanks so much. Great to be here. Great to talk to you again Bob. Yeah. So my name is Howard Diamond I am the chief strategy officer with Rise Interactive. We are based in Chicago today at our office. We’re one of the largest independent agencies and we focus on all the different areas of digital marketing and performance, performance marketing in terms of media analytics creative and really helping brands manage their digital investments to maximize their business outcomes whether that’s revenue new customers branding etc. So exciting to be here and talk about some of the challenges that brands face that agencies and partners face and just talk about some of those key issues.
Bob Tripathi: And how would I know this is a great story and some something that I’ve seen so closely especially of it to you and the founder John Morris is is. You guys have built from few people to like how many are you. Two hundred Sure.
Howard Diamond: Yeah. We’re over where we when I started there were eight of us and it’s a great story. It’s fun to talk about where over 250 people now are also part of Quad, which is one of the largest printing and marketing services companies in the world. There are something like 20 thousand employees so it’s great to be part of a larger organization but still have the independence to be you know to do what we need to do and be leaders and help be a part of a larger marketing story.
Bob Tripathi: Yeah I love that growth story love that growth story having getting it so closely. So in your in your world you’ve seen and you’ve worked with so many enterprise companies right. With the whole digital team so have you seen the shift. You know so that is this whole model about in-house and in-house and working with an external partners like the Rise in Digital Sparks. What are you seeing in terms of trends.
Howard Diamond: Yeah. You know I think you always hear whether it’s every every couple of years or whatever it is that there is this trend of insource versus outsource and I think you definitely see different, different things happening out there and sometimes it depends on the size of the organization of the vertical. I think that for the most part agencies aren’t going anywhere. But I do think that there are different ways that we’re engaging and you know I think that brands they are looking at making sure that they can still execute and do what they need to do and really understand their brand but also at the same time have experts that can come in and help them and be very deep and specific area. So I think a lot of times it just means how do you find that. How do you find that balance of being seamless extensions of each other’s teams and working well together and not not being so you know just focused on one specific model. So I think that we’re definitely seeing that you know you are seeing some brands bring things in-house. But I think for the most part you’re seeing this partnership where you’re seeing in-house experts work with external experts and working together to solve problems.
Bob Tripathi: Yeah and that is so true. You know having been part of large companies small companies or my career. The one thing that is constant across the board is everyone is short on resources even if you’re a large company you’re short on resources because you have to do a lot of stuff and you’re serving millions and millions of customers. So you know you’ve got to scale up fast. So that doesn’t change. But I think the hybrid model. I don’t think there’s anything that there’s 100 percent in-house. Even if it involves steam you’re still leveraging outside expertise because they are in the marketplace.
Howard Diamond: I think that’s for those two reasons one is just the volume of work and people need to get things done and sometimes there’s there’s more that can be there’s more that needs to be done that can be done in-house and the second is I think depth of expertise or the amount of change that’s happening in the marketplace. So there’s so many new technologies and channels we’re going to talk about that I think in terms of you know there’s a lot of shift towards marketplaces and what’s happening with Amazon and Wal-Mart and all these all these new things that are happening and it requires an amount of focus and investment and innovation and that’s where I think that agencies can partner with brands to work together because I do believe that I mean this isn’t universal. There are many brands out there that are investing in innovation understand these channels but I think in many cases that’s that’s happening in the agency world. And that’s our job is to bring that innovation and bring those ideas to the clients. I think that that’s where that partnership can come together.
Bob Tripathi: So having worked with so many enterprise marketing teams what are you seeing the typical channel makes you know Like people say digital digital can be so broad right it can be a digital billboard but what are some of the channel mixes you’ve been seeing.
Howard Diamond: Yeah I think you know the the for the most part people are looking at channels in terms of how they can serve their goals and that that specific part of the funnel or how these work together to to tackle the entire funnel. So for example you know search marketing is an area we focus heavily on. It’s not going anywhere but you know there’s a lot of people that are raising their hands looking for people’s products. But at some point you need to go. Up the funnel and you need to use awareness tactics whether that’s programmatic or paid social and I think a lot of markers understand these basic concepts but I think that there’s a lot of new ways to use. To use these channels in terms of audience data leveraging first party audience data and then creating lookalike like audiences and things like that that have made other channels. And specifically I think it might help to give some perspective rise in our in our lineage has worked a lot with with direct response brands that really have to drive sales and conversions and that sort of thing. So you know again a lot of people want to drive as much bottom of funnel. Activity as possible put as much money as possible as they can in those areas. But at some point that’s going to become saturated need to look at other channels. So we are seeing. Brands. Take advantage of the many great innovations that have happened in paid social in programmatic. leveraging, audiences leveraging new ad types and ad formats and be able to have a more full funnel approach. So I don’t think that there’s. These these tectonic shifts in terms of where people are allocating budget but I think marketers are realizing they have to be smart about leveraging all these channels. So I think that that’s something we’ve seen. Specifically you know the world of paid social has become very sophisticated and over the past several years with what is possible again by kind of combining you know audience targeting and ad formats to be able to create sequential messaging and pulling people through the funnel and that’s where we’re seeing a lot of success again beyond just that bottom of funnel search strategy.
Bob Tripathi: Yeah. So I mean you know if you take the clock back like say five to six year search budget allocation was huge right. I would say 30 40 sometimes even 70 percent of seed budget allocated to search which is you know regular paid ads what are you seeing. Is it like 30 percent organic.Thoughts on that.
Howard Diamond: It really depends on the clients. I mean we have a lot of clients that are either retailers that are selling many types of products and many brands as well as as well as brands that are selling direct their own products. I think it depends on you know goals and you know what they’re trying to achieve from a growth and margin standpoint but typically we’re seeing search where perhaps maybe at some point it was 50 or 60 or 70 percent of spend it might be 25 percent of spend or 30 percent of spend but it does depend on on the on the vertical. And again this is where we’re seeing a shift to paid social and programmatic and. You know for some of those folks it’s a true shift or many folks are creating that new dollars because there’s so much growth in their business that they can spend more overall so that money isn’t it’s flowing away from search to think there’s more dollars that are being being put into the. Into the mix. Because those dollars can be effective and drive drive value.
Bob Tripathi: So what are some of the budget top channels that you’re seeing people allocating search. Paid, You mentioned paid social.
Howard Diamond: Yeah yeah programmatic for sure. There’s a lot that can be done with programmatic both from retargeting and re-engagement as well as top of funnel and also of course there are metrics beyond just bottom of funnel in terms of brand awareness and engagement and there’s great there’s great. Strategies and tactics from native advertising in content and that sort of thing, connected TV is another channel that we’re seeing quite a bit of growth. And so being able to leverage our audience data with these being able to reach cord cutters and people using all the great entertainment platforms out there. I also want to mention that you know Affiliate marketing is is a channel that every marketer should always be looking at if it makes sense for their business. It’s one of the original digital marketing channels that are that is out there. But sometimes you have somewhat of a set and forget it mentality and there’s a lot of opportunity out with affiliate especially when it comes to leveraging influencers and doing content sponsorships. And there’s just a lot of innovation that’s happening there that should not be overlooked. But specifically when it comes to kind of new areas of investment I think the biggest area we’ve seen over the past two or three years is really marketplaces by marketplaces we mean. Amazon.com you mean Wal-Mart. We mean these retail marketing networks through you know being able to advertise directly with retail channels whether it’s going to a retailer or working with a platform partner like a critical and there’s a lot of great capabilities that are out there. So if you are selling products if you’re a pure CPG company or a DTC company there’s there’s a good chance you are you are either heavily invested in channels or you’re exploring how should you be taking advantage of these channels.
Bob Tripathi: Yeah it’s amazing. So what are you seeing and like is the big companies just testing the waters. People are deep in because my thing is like you know you have affiliate marketing especially on the product side which could contribute about 10 percent to your revenues right through affiliate in large organizations. But then you have these marketplaces which is so dominant. What kind of an investment are you seeing that people just testing water with say 5 percent of the budget.
Howard Diamond: That’s a good question. I mean I think it depends on the brand. There’s also kind of a different I would almost say there’s if you if you buy for Kate the mark into a couple of different types of this price overgeneralization of kind of consumable products you know you’re talking about CPG food you know household you know personal care products that sort of thing lower AOB versus some of the higher ALB products you know furniture furniture electronics those types of things. And I think they have different strategies because of the margin and because of the way people know the way that consumers shop. I think that in both categories we’ve seen the whole range of you know brands that are doing quite a bit quite a bit of investment you know in terms of overall probably investment in terms of their total pool of dollars is relatively small but by by sheer dollars that are large these companies are spending millions of dollars you know investing in some of these marketplaces for both paid solutions as well as investing in content. You now have to have robust content and product detail pages across all these different marketplaces neither have that done through technology or through having people actually create that content. So there’s quite a bit of investment that’s happening and it’s really interesting and it’s been a very dynamic part of our business.
Bob Tripathi: Nice. And I’m assuming Amazon is still top of the chart. Amazon is the Google and product marketplace I think.
Howard Diamond: So there I think you definitely have I mean certainly they’re driving the lion’s share of actual revenue for e-commerce. However there are some channels that shows excuse me there are some there are some brands that for whatever reason you know they they don’t want to work as closely with Amazon maybe they can’t get the margin they’re looking for or they’ve tapped out of the type of you know type of. Growth that they’re looking for there and they’re starting to look at other other types of distribution models including some direct to consumer DTC some of them are building their own e-commerce sites or investing more in them or again working with some of these other platforms whether it’s a target or you know at the grocery the grocery chains as well.
Bob Tripathi: So nice nice. I know you mentioned content. I’m assuming there is quite a bit of investment in the video side of things as well. Right. Not just video ads but also the creation and things like that do you see a lot of that up take.
Howard Diamond: That’s a great point. I think that the brands that I’ve spoken with I mean I think. Everybody wants to have as much video content as possible. I mean it’s you know or I should say especially for those products that require a lot of detail or they’re higher AOB and you know if you’re selling again higher ticket items and there’s a lot of competition you want to go to explain your product as best as possible and. You know you want to have that video but video is expensive video takes time so you’re definitely looking at how do you prioritize and choose where to create that content. There is definitely a lot of investment being made in video content as well as even you know Amazon all of it a plus content rich richer content whether it’s infographics or whatnot so that the consumer is seeing you know you can understand the value proposition of product A versus product. B. You’re seeing a ton of investment there. Absolutely.
Bob Tripathi: Nice, very nice. So this is you are in a very unique position because you work with these large brands and everyone has tons of marketing technology platform. I mean no need to mention but the whole Martech ecosystem has grown I think what seven thousand eight thousand Martech platforms out there. But how do you navigate that. Like what do you see in terms of the platform. So do you just come in and say oh we’ll work with any platform or do you come in with your own platform. How does the Martech Shift comes in.
Howard Diamond: Sure. Our approach has always been you know we want to work with the technology that’s going to drive the best outcome for our clients including consideration to cost and transparency. Do they have the same philosophy and methodology that we do in terms that we think about you know how we think about going to market and that sort of thing. So we tend to look for solutions that are out there. But when we find a gap in the marketplace we will look to you know to to build something or partner with someone to deliver the best solution specifically arise. We’ve invested heavily into our own technology platform called Connex which brings in data from the various channels search programmatic Social now. Amazon marketplaces. And we’re able to then really help. And we don’t talk a lot about about Rise specifically but. We really believe that our job is to help clients figure out where they should be investing their dollars across all the different channels and tactics and how they should use data to make those decisions. So we felt that we needed better technology to do that. Better technology. Do some of the back end and optimization against some of those objectives. But we are still also leveraging a number of great partners out there to build out our tech stack. So you know there’s the platforms Amazon, Google, Bing, Facebook all those all those guys and we make sure that we have all the certifications that we are really power users of those platforms. I think that’s really required to be great at what you do but also deliver that value to your to your customer. And then there’s that kind of next tier of enablement platforms that kind of plug in that ecosystem. And then again there’s our own proprietary tool. So we want to use the entire spectrum of technology solutions that are out there and do so in a way that is the most you know the best value to the client. We’re not just building technology just to build it or buying technology just to buy it. We will test but it’s all about leveraging the best tools out there.
Bob Tripathi: Have you ever been in a situation. I’m sure you have a you go into a client. I’m like oh you guys are not using this kind of a platform or you know. So what are some of those things like oh you need to have this for sure.
Howard Diamond: Absolutely. I mean there are situations where you come into a client and they say this is our technology platform and that’s great that’s the platform you align with most. And it also will do the job that you needed to do. And then there are those situations where it’s a legacy situation of some kind. And even the client recognizes it’s not the best analytics platform or automated bidding platform but you’re kind of you’re kind of in that situation for whatever business reasons you know there’s other contacts you have to use that solution. And our job is to look at kind of you know effort to impact you know and say OK if we were to make a change what changed with that drive is it worth going in and taking this out and putting something else in and what result will that what’s in that of that that particular effort. So I think that’s our job again is that that’s seamless extension of the team to make those recommendations again without bias. You know we’ve we’ve gotten to the point and I think many agencies have where it’s as much transparent apparently as possible. There’s no technology margins or spreads we’re adding on it’s simply which you know how do we put the right pieces together. For this particular client. So I think we go in with that mindset you can have good conversations with clients and really work together to figure out what that tech stack looks like.
Bob Tripathi: Nice very nice, In terms of product innovation with these platforms like you mentioned Google and of course the Facebook and all these programmatic platforms out there. What are you seeing the next level of innovation that these guys are testing out their father consumers that if you may have any insights from that.
Bob Tripathi: Yeah it’s a good question. I think what you’re seeing is you know more and more of these platforms and we’re talking about the large platforms of course are you know you’re hearing the words machine learning and you know A.I. and all that cash thrown out there but you are seeing I think the platforms look to invest more in optimization that’s done through some sort of automation and I think that that’s you know that’s basically how do how do these platforms allow brands to spend as freely as possible and as optimally as possible. You know. With with technology. So you’re seeing a lot happening I think with with Google with Facebook. I think Amazon is still you know they’re still ramping up their technology platform but. I think those are the biggest innovations we’re seeing and you know we’re there they’re taking ownership or control of that of some of that that optimization and it’s going to be interesting because I think brands still want to have you know themselves or their agencies have hands on keyboards and pulling pulling levers and that sort of thing. But there’s there’s kind of this shift towards some of this automatic optimization.
Bob Tripathi: Yeah that’s an interesting relationship right. Where the platforms we want to get control or have control over the relationship with the direct clients. And then you know as an agency you would fall in. Right. I mean it’s pretty tricky I would imagine managing it is tricky.
Howard Diamond: But we have great relationships with the platforms and they again most of these large larger established platforms have great agency teams and they recognize that we all sit on the table together and we all have to drive the best outcome for the client and for the brand for not doing so that we’re not we’re not doing our jobs. So it is it is a is it is a discussion and it is something that we strive for. Have that you know that that partnership across all parties.
Bob Tripathi: No you can dis about them and be a little controversial. That’s fine. Howard, I am kidding…no this is good. I mean you know I look around it right the whole platforms and the technology and this is what we see over and over again. But the platforms on the brands to spend more and then come up with the product innovations and things like that. But that puts according to me a different kind of pressure on agencies because what we are seeing is you know we have all these the market in terms of marketing services company or slash agencies. And as a client they want more and more. Right. And then there’s too much pressure on agency super form to deliver even in terms of contracts so many things have changed. The 30 day clause and so many time is not variable. So how do you keep up with that. You know in terms of managing the expectations of the client while delivering it and then you have the platform side which is Google, Facebook and all of that comes of this new innovation pushes the client and the client and pushes the agencies like yours and mine. How do you manage that.Sorry long question.
Howard Diamond: And it’s a lot, I think you’re hitting on a key point. I mean at the end of the day we’re all being asked to do more with less and there’s more choices out there and I think that’s that’s part of that’s part of why Rise is really aligned against this methodology of you know there’s going to be constant change in the marketplace of channels tactics trends and we want to be the partner that’s looking at data to make decisions on where to invest those dollars and that means. Which technologies which which platforms which which channels et cetera. So if you go into it with the right mindset of what you’re trying to accomplish that it helps you which is that I can only make have some sort of prioritization model and you have to prioritize. You have to look at effort to impact. You can’t just test just a test. In most cases I mean you should have innovation you should have some hold out budget to do testing but there needs to be some need to be some rationale of what sort of outcomes you might be looking to achieve with testing. So I think it’s our job again to align with clients and figure out how do we maximize the things that are working best. How do we look to optimize kind of that next. That next set down and then what are we doing to innovate and come up with new ideas. And I think again part of our job is if you look at all the different channels. A company like rise kind of operates within getting you know getting back to search and social and programmatic and affiliate and marketplaces. We rely on experts in our organization to go deep and understand what’s happening in those areas and kind of then add in that next level. Different verticals that we’re in and really. Work together to identify what’s happening and you know this work for this client over here. Well let’s go bring it to this kind of a here because we think they have some similar challenges and problems so similar to your long question that’s by a long answer. But the idea is to get some alignment around priorities and have some method of doing innovation and testing that gets you to where you need to be.
Bob Tripathi: So how do you tell clients you know like for example the platforms come in. Oh you guys should invest this much money you look a little bit of dusting money in this new feature that we have just come up with like you know it could be on the Google AdWords or Facebook.
Howard Diamond: Absolutely. It happens all the time. And you know we’re also pushing them to let us do those things with alphas and betas and that sort of thing. I think you know working with the platforms and the brands to to identify what the goals are for that particular client again is it a product launch is it more about loyalty is it more about customer acquisition and then understanding well which which goals or which goal or goals does this particular new feature potentially help us advance and I think that that gives us again a good good point of know just just grounds us and now we have those conversations. I think for the most part you know again the platforms do a great job of coming up with innovative ways. Of connecting with customers whether it’s ad formats or audience targeting. The goal is to create more relevance for the consumer and better betters. You know more know better outcomes for the brand. So I think for the most part those those those seem to work out but we also have to be the filter sometimes and say you know what. That’s that’s maybe not the first thing that we would invest in or maybe we should. You know there’s three of the things we wanted to do. Let’s do those three things and then let’s look at this other things that’s a conversation you have with a client. And make sure that you guys are aligned in how you approach innovation.
Bob Tripathi: So as you as we get into 2020 you Oh my God that is a scary thought that 2020 is already here but yes we will be in a few months right. Let’s go to what what is what would you advise companies to invest there or test the things into 2020, I know you mentioned marketplaces but anything else you see on the intercept on the horizon that people should invest in 2020.
Bob Tripathi: Yeah it’s a great question. I mean I think that marketers just can should continue to challenge themselves beyond the status quo. I think by status quo that could mean the budget allocation that you’ve had. The messaging strategy and to it may sound cliche but it just constantly always be tested. You know to make sure that they’re looking at if they’re again their captain up out of a funnel traffic how are they going to up the funnel. How are they looking at different metrics instead of looking at cost per acquisition. Let’s look at customer lifetime value and change the way that we approach these things. Because otherwise you know a lot of these programs can run sideways and you know and I think that that’s. That’s kind of the enemy of of all trying to do every day in terms of coming up with new ways to grow and innovate. So I would say you know continuously testing, channel mix, messaging. KPIs and measurement frameworks and then also educating and you know whether it’s your executive teams or other folks in the organization. And. What you’re doing evangelized what you’re doing and that it’s OK to test. It’s OK to test and fail. And to build a culture again. That it’s. You know. A culture of testing and I know we all talk about these things but I think that that’s what I would continue to challenge France to do and then yes if there are channels that. Or tactics frustrated they’re not engaged with. As much as they should be. What is their approach to marketplaces and how do how do they go after that. And do they have the right partners in the right technology the right people to go and execute on those plans.
Bob Tripathi: Amazing. Amazing. So now this is a question I’m going to ask before I let you go but one last question and I don’t hold back but I’m going to flip the side. I’m an enterprise marketer a lot of our listeners work in companies. What are the three suggestions or recommendations you would have for enterprise marketers on how they can work better with their agencies, if you have to give them three tips. What would they would be.
Howard Diamond: Yeah great question. Putting me on the spot here a little bit. I think the number one thing I’m thinking first of is Transparency. It’s really important that. Your agency partner understands what you’re trying to accomplish because the more we understand and you know the sales goals the margin goals what’s happening the organization the broader context the better we can serve each other. And I think that goes the next point is. Once we understand what’s happening in the broader context the organization how do we align and really agree on the prioritization model of how we approach the business how we how we allocate dollars how we make strategic decisions. And let’s see the third thing. I think it’s important to remember that. Everybody for the most part in the agency world. I think that everybody wants to succeed everybody wants to work with. You to work with clients that they enjoy working with. To have fun. And I think you know. Keeping having a spirit of partnership and again I believe that that that is happening out there. But you’re asking me is as a brand marketer you know what. Yes. So how can they continue to align as true partners. Not to think of their agency purely as a vendor. Let’s really think of that seamless extension of the team. And I think. If you can accomplish those three things then you will have a very successful. Agency brand relationship.
Bob Tripathi: No no no. Being in the house as you know in some companies that treated the agencies as a vendor and the performance or the work quality was different. On the other hand companies where they treated the agencies as their partners, the work quality was like a hockey stick. Absolutely. And yeah. So so completely agree. Great. Three points. Thank you for those suggestions so now how does anything. Anything else you would like to talk to that probably I didn’t ask or anything on your chest did you and I get asked you know did I miss anything.
Howard Diamond: I think you covered it. I think I’m a great conversation just in terms of how agency brands work together. I think it’s an interesting topic and I look forward to hearing more of your your your podcasts and see what other brands and marketers have to say. So thank you so much for having me.
Bob Tripathi: Absolutely and Howard how do people reach out to you on LinkedIn. Howard Diamond and yeah.
Howard Diamond: Sure absolutely or I sometimes post on Twitter at HD r\Rise and I would love to hear from you in the chat. Thanks Guys
Bob Tripathi: Thank you so much Howard for doing this. I learned a lot I think audiences gained a lot too. But great conversation. Thank you for making the time. Thank you Howard.
Howard Diamond: Thanks Bob.